Rhaegar and Elia's marriage. What was really going on?

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  • Published on:  Sunday, August 5, 2018
  • What was really going on in Rhaegar and Elia's marriage? Was she a wronged woman? Was there love there? Or was there something even more complex going on?

    In Deep Geek - Insight and debate about Game of Thrones, Westworld and more.

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  • Kaleah Collins
    Kaleah Collins  21 days ago

    I believe the martells are the descendants of the dothroki

  • Tess d'Urberville
    Tess d'Urberville  1 months ago

    I agree that Elia would probably have agreed to having a sister wife. She would have seen the sense in it and it would not have displaced her or threatened her status or that of her children. Lyanna, being young, foolish and obviously selfish would have pressed for the annulment, not bothering to consider the consequences, much like Anne Boleyn.

  • Liz Connolly
    Liz Connolly  1 months ago

    In the show when Oberyn and Tyrion are speaking for one of the first times (S4 E1), Oberyn tells the story of Elia and Rhaegar and he does NOT sound pleased or like he would approve when he said that Elia "loved him, bore his children, swaddled them, rocked them, fed them at her own breast. Elia wouldn't let the wet nurse touch them. And beautiful and noble Rhaegar Targaryen left her for another woman." The way he says it and seems to feel about it just doesn't seem to support the idea that it would have been no big deal despite any cultural regularity of multiple lovers.

  • Nikku Kumari
    Nikku Kumari  1 months ago

    From the comment section now i know why there is very divorce rate in western world becoz prefer their own selfish desire above their family happiness.

  • Nikku Kumari
    Nikku Kumari  1 months ago

    Lyanna and rhaegar love story only be possible in tolkein not in martin. I think there is a very complex secret behiend this story.

  • Heather Riede
    Heather Riede  2 months ago +1

    Great point about both Targs and Dornish being polyamorous so it wouldn't probably be a big deal if Rhaegar told Ellia "hey i'm going after Lyanna now" maybe to them personally, but the only issue I have w/this is, why then, Did Oberon get so angry at Rhaegar's slight against his sister at the Tourney by giving Lyanna the crown of love and beauty? Maybe just because it's still a public slight, or perceived as such by most people? Otherwise why would Oberon care?


    I do have some suspicions that the Martells are not such good people all in all at least not Oberon and Doran. I think Oberon could've had an incestuous relationship w/Ellia too which would make more sense that he felt that was very disrespectful what Rhaegar did b/c he loved his sister like Jaime loves Cersei. Also please don't gloss over the fact that Oberon wasn't necessarily a great dad either. He only came for his kids when they were a bit older and then trained them all to be assassins, so why? It seems he and his brother had a plan to overtake at least the Lannisters after Robert became King, but I'm not sure on the timeline for when he started training his kids to be assassins. Either way, even if it was before the rebellion, it's still odd to make your kids into assassins (who could be killed putting themselves in harm's way) instead of just spending time w/them as your video comments suggest is all he did. Doran we know has some secret plots going on, and The Order of the Greenhand makes some interesting videos regarding him, and also notes how it's kind of pedo-creepy how he's always watching the naked kids playing, and makes an odd remark about it too, and he also seems to not have any real regard for his own children either. He surely must know he's sending Arianne and Quinten to their deaths on those impossible missions and didn't mind breaking Arianne's spirit after her very stupid rebellion plot failed. The only one he seems to care about is Trystane, but for himself or for whatever his greater plan is for power?

  • Force Smuggler
    Force Smuggler  2 months ago +3

    I could see the whole Rhaegar/Elia/Lyanna situation going multiple different ways. A lot of things make sense for this working out and or not working out.
    Aerys did not like Rhaenys. Said she smelled Dornish.
    When was Aegon born in relation to the Tourney of Harenhal?
    I could see Rhaegar and Elia debating contingency plans if their second child was a girl and Elia was declared barren or that another pregnancy would kill her after that.
    Elia doesn't strike me as the type to try to get a 3rd child, die and leave Rhaenys and Aegon at the mercy of a new step-mom.
    Oh, I'm sure it would sting her pride but she would rather live than leave her children to another woman who would most likely kill Elia's children to get the new kids on the Throne.
    Aerys would probably annul the marriage and force Rhaegar to marry someone loyal to Aerys, and make Elia's children bastards and unable to inherit.
    Or make Viserys his heir.
    What was Viserys like before leaving the Red Keep? Under Aerys's tutelage, so that could be a concern. If so I could see Elia and Rhaegar wanting to get more children to keep Viserys as far from the Throne as possible. And with Aerys (and his mental state), Rhaella, Rhaegar, Elia, Viserys, Rhaenys and Aegon being the only Targaryens, their reign was in a tenuous position. More kids, more Houses tied to the Throne.
    So Elia and Rhaegar would probably be proactively looking to prevent those outcomes.
    Also assuming Rhaegar's "The Dragon must have 3 heads" statement actually matters in the books.
    The Faith wouldn't be happy but that wouldn't stop Aerys, who would just burn Septons until he got someone who would annul the Elia/Rhaegar marriage.
    No idea what was going on with the crowning thing (aside from Lyanna being the KOTLT) but could see Elia getting a good judgement of Lyanna's character at a gathering of Ladies and with the KOTLT incident. Did Rhaegar try contacting Lords Rickard and Robert afterwards to smooth things over?

    And what happened when Rhaegar and Lyanna supposedly ran away? Lyanna didn't like Robert and was concerned about his bastard, so why run off with Rhaegar? Ruin herself intentionally? Aerys sent men after the KOTLT and Rhaegar rescued her and took her to a safe place away from everyone? Why was Brandon convinced Rhaegar kidnapped and raped his sister? Was Lyanna able to leave a letter but trusted the wrong person? Did they get a letter to Winterfell? Did Maester Wyalis intercept said letter? Why no contact during the Rebellion to Ned? Did Did Robert and Jon intercept all letters? Was no letter sent, to stop Aerys from becoming more paranoid, if the Rebels joined with Rhaegar?

    Lyanna in Dorne doesn't make sense to me either. The last place someone would look? Arthur Dayne being from Starfall, which, is nearby and Ashara Dayne being a friend of Elia, make it more likely that this was planned but could be wrong.

    And Jaime's promise to Rhaegar to protect his family in King's Landing. Fever dream? It was Aerys who wanted Jaime in King's Landing. Why 3 Kingsguard in Dorne with Lyanna? Because they'd have to answer to Aerys and not Rhaegar?

    One of the things that Dorne is known for is that they don't blame innocent children right? If things happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna without Elia's consent (and based on what we know about her) I don't think she would have despised Jon like Catelyn would have. Rhaegar and Lyanna would be persona non grata though. Then again, that could depend on how close she and her children came to death at the hands of the Lannsters or Aerys. Oh, I have no doubt their relationship would be tense and awkward regardless once Jon learned the truth of his parents actions. Though, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if Elia did everything in her power to make sure Jon loved his siblings so that he wouldn't rebel against Aegon in the future even if she didn't care for him.

  • Rhiano J
    Rhiano J  3 months ago

    I've always thought oqrtof the reason Areys set up and agreed to the match was the Elia was from a noble house who had most recently had a targaryen marry into the line, if I remember correctly her great grab other would have been the first Daenerys? For whom the the first bkackfyre rebellion was started for.

  • Val Storm
    Val Storm  3 months ago

    Yes.

  • CAROL BRISCOE
    CAROL BRISCOE  4 months ago

    A very plausible argument for Rhaegar's wife. As a Martell of Dorne her views may well have been as you speculated.

  • Dejan Todorovic
    Dejan Todorovic  5 months ago

    Every word is on point. Great video.

  • guibox3
    guibox3  5 months ago +1

    Hmm. I think I like and agree with this theory. Especially, as you say, the Dornish were very relaxed about sex and 'swinging'. No reason that Elia would be any different and most likely at the least, came to terms (considering this was mostly a political marriage) that the Targaryan trait of incest and multiple wives, would be probable with Rhaegar.

  • Frankie Fontecchio
    Frankie Fontecchio  5 months ago

    3rd time listening to this series

  • Anthony Bogart
    Anthony Bogart  6 months ago

    So then why all the secrecy ?

  • Lisa Davison
    Lisa Davison  6 months ago +2

    Completely agree and logically makes perfect sense. Even in normal today's society, people grow up with beliefs and traditions that may be specific to their house/family, and it's all they know because it's how things have always been and the ways of Dorne fit nicely into his fulfillment of the prophecy! And I agree that Elia would not have thought it wrong or odd for Rhaegar to seek out another woman who could give him more children.

  • Ant Man11
    Ant Man11  6 months ago +1

    Elia went down on Lyanna..

  • Victoria Oh
    Victoria Oh  6 months ago +1

    I don’t believe Elia was fine with it because it would have put shame on her but I do believe tha Rhaegar loved Elia. I don’t think he was in love with her but I do think he loved her. Barristen or what’s his face said Rhaegar was fond of him but Jaime thought they loved one another. Whatever the case was Rhaegar had no justification in letting Elia die the way she did. She deserved more guards protecting her

  • anonymous nation
    anonymous nation  6 months ago +2

    So D&D added dany's vision of standing near the iron throne to fit their shitty season 8 writing in to a place but missed this important vision of hers......
    GRRM should stand against them for doing such a below mediocre work

  • Love Lissa
    Love Lissa  6 months ago +1

    When Dany had her vision of Aegon’s birth while at the tower she notes that it was if Rhagar saw her standing there. He immediately goes on to quote that the dragon has three heads. Could be have seen his sister Dany in a vision link and assumed she was to be the third head, his second daughter?

  • IWant2Live OnMyFeet
    IWant2Live OnMyFeet  7 months ago +2

    This is absolutely on point, thank you as always!
    I highly agree, clearly the whole incident of Rhaegar crowning Lyanna the QOLAB was received completely different by the Lords and Ladies than by Elia. The cultural differences of accepting Polygamy and mistresses seemed to weigh in, though we need to differentiate further here since we don't know if Rhaegar and Elia were exactly on the same page. We do know that Targaryens benefitted from a lot of privileges, one being that the King could have multiple wives. However, these wives normally had to be Targaryens themselves; there was no talk of marrying just any noblewomen. Elia was the choice here since there was a lack of female Targaryens and she was the closest Targaryen descendant in line. So to to repeat it clearly, Westerosi generally rejected the notion of incest and Polygamy, but accepted both when it came to the royal Targs. Dornish people were generally lenient when it came to having paramours and mistresses and the bastard children were treated almost fairly within society. However, the affairs had to stay affairs, the feudal system and customs did not allow Polygamy.

    So what does that mean in regards of Lyanna's position?
    Rhaegar pushed for a third child, but so far there was no talk whether he had to come from an official marriage or if it was 'enough' that he was born in the first place. Elia most likely accepted Lyanna as a mistress, but we don't know if she would've accepted the child as a pure born since he couldve been a threat to her Aegon. Despite all leniency, I do believe she was not stupid and clearly pushed to have her own children in charge.
    The rest of the Westerosi society, however, could only read Rhaegar's action as an afront. Even if Elia permitted an affair with Lyanna, Rhaegar could have not expected that the rest of Westeros would do the same.Rather than that it is obvious they would take it a big insult. And IF Rhaegar did intend to marry Lyanna then it was still a crude move since Polygamy was just accepted between Targs. Lyanna has no (official) Targ blood, so he would effectively try to bend the rules and involve non-Targs in his perceives urge for Polygamy - a move that the Lord and Ladies were not ready to accept, especially without any explanation.